quote:

Originally posted by adam:
Hi Michael

We are not responsible for BlackBerry syncing. Companies like PocketMac develop the software that syncs with BlackBerry.

...

Anything at that time, that is Sync Services compliant, will be able to share data with Daylite, or with Mark/Space, or Address Book, or iCal, or iSync, or Entourage, etc., but you still need something to get it onto the BlackBerry. That is essentially the fault of Apple and RIM for not getting it built into the OS like it is for regular mobile phones in iSync.

HTH,

Adam:

I'm curious to know which of those companies is responsible for Marketcircle's continued marketing of a feature that hasn't functioned for at least 6 months if in fact it ever did? While the technical issues behind the problem may well lie within somebody else's purview, the decision to engage in false advertising is Marketcircle's alone and I would caution you against passing the buck with such ease and smugness. In particular, while the "it'll be done when its done" stance is cute prior to software being released, it is far less endearing when referring to software that you've already released but is simply broken, as is the case here. Marketcircle is running on what remains of their customer's patience in this matter and that is a limited resource. I would suggest that you drop the attitude and become significantly more conciliatory and forthcoming about when those customers can expect to see delivery of a feature for which they've already paid.

Hi Mitchell

Our box explicitly states that BlackBerry syncing requires software from PocketMac; it's not a built-in feature of Daylite. Daylite sends data to PocketMac, which sends it to the BlackBerry. And vice versa. Thus we depend on their reliability.

I appreciate what you've said here, but I'm just being honest about the situation--which I think is the most important thing at this point. Naturally, you haven't paid for BlackBerry syncing unless you've paid for PocketMac, and I would really advise you to put pressure on them. We have tried working with them to resolve issues that have come up, but have only had limited success in doing so. For many customers, syncing works, while for others it doesn't. But, in terms of getting better results from PocketMac, more pressure from customers like you will help significantly.

Also, I have been as explicit as possible in laying out the roles of the various stakeholders involved. Syncing is complicated, and things change. Evidently we have not updated our (granted, subtle and qualified, but still present) marketing. But I urge you to consider the "other half" of this equation right now is PocketMac. And in the future, who knows, but it will certainly then involve Apple (with Sync Services) and could involve RIM directly.

I wouldn't suggest that we are engaging in false advertising. That is a serious claim, and not accurate. We have a BlackBerry here at the office and can sync with it. Sometimes we experience problems too, but that is true of all use of all software.

Also I hope that you'll find that generally we are extremely customer focused and committed to your needs. That's why we're working on our Sync Services integration, better documentation, and of course, constantly improving our products.

Thx,

I would also add that it's not customary for private companies to publicly discuss competitive information such as when to expect certain features. We occasionally do mention things of that nature, but we're careful when doing so, for obvious reasons.

Hi Adam:

Look, you seem like a bright guy and Daylite is a fine product or else none of us would even be here. But your 'handling' of these complaints, while soothing, is meaningless, and it does you, your users and Daylite a disservice. More to the point, it gives the impression that a) we care more about this than Marketcircle does; b) you're unwilling to definitively acknowledge the problem, much less own it. Were you to say "hey guys, we got nailed on this one because we relied on a 3rd party who has turned out to be excrement, so we're taking it off of the feature list until we can re-engineer it and here's a coupon for a frappacino for your troubles" (paraphrasing, obviously), I suspect you'd get a lot of support (other than from Fanboy Bill, I mean ). Instead, this is what we've been treated to:

"We've already told you, its not our fault. Read the forums. Besides, it works sometimes and in limited fashion, i.e., not completely broken, so we're leaving it on as a feature. Did we mention that its not our fault? Yes we're fixing it - we TOLD you that 6 months ago. No, we won't estimate when it will be fixed. Besides, its no our fault"

Its one thing to be asked to extend good will and patience to a developer who is operating in good faith. Its quite another to be expected to smile when that developer a) disavows the problem; b) passes the blame; c) is secretive about the progress of a solution while; d) being smug about their right to do so; e) argues over semantics; f) condescends to its customers.

quote:

Originally posted by adam:
Our box explicitly states that BlackBerry syncing requires software from PocketMac; it's not a built-in feature of Daylite. Daylite sends data to PocketMac, which sends it to the BlackBerry. And vice versa. Thus we depend on their reliability...

...Naturally, you haven't paid for BlackBerry syncing unless you've paid for PocketMac

BlackBerry sync is listed as a feature of Daylite and is therefore a selling point. Period. In purchasing Daylite it was my understanding (because it is what Markercircle claimed) that I was also purchasing that feature. PocketMac, for the record, is free.

quote:

I wouldn't suggest that we are engaging in false advertising. That is a serious claim, and not accurate. We have a BlackBerry here at the office and can sync with it. Sometimes we experience problems too, but that is true of all use of all software.

If by serious you mean to imply that I'm somehow treading close to defamation (wrong tactic, by the way), I hardly think so. Judgment on these things is pretty cut and dried: you advertise a feature + that feature doesn't work (by your own admission) + you continue to advertise it = false advertising.

Regardless, I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone else who interprets something that functions intermittently and for only a portion of the user population as functioning.

quote:

Also I hope that you'll find that generally we are extremely customer focused and committed to your needs. That's why we're working on our Sync Services integration, better documentation, and of course, constantly improving our products.

Yep, you've been pretty good. Which is why its particularly baffling and frustrating that Marketcircle won't step up and demonstrate integrity on this specific issue. This really is a point of honor more than anything else and in my opinion, you're failing the test.

I'm absolutely certain that our disagreement on this is a matter of perspective, you as the developer and me as the customer. I'm not alone in feeling that Marketcircle has failed to deliver on a promise and is now being unapologetic as well as cagey about what they're doing about it. Failing your coming forth with some genuine information, the next best first step you can make toward easing this tension is by not responding with another palliative but uninformative missive.

quote:

Originally posted by adam:
I would also add that it's not customary for private companies to publicly discuss competitive information such as when to expect certain features. We occasionally do mention things of that nature, but we're careful when doing so, for obvious reasons.

Well then here's a fantastic opportunity to exceed your customer's expectations!

Besides, this feature is already out of the bag. We just want to know when it will work.

As I said, I appreciate what you're getting at. I do disagree with some of the things you're saying, however, and I believe that there's nothing I can tell you honestly that will satisfy.

Mainly that is, because as I have tried to outline, syncing is a complex process, it involves many stakeholders, and we can't guarantee anything about it right now. We're still working on Sync Services support, and we absolutely, 100% rely on other developers for the part of syncing that goes from computer to device. As indicated elsewhere on the forums, first half of 2007 is when we plan to have our Sync Services support in Daylite.

Beyond that, we can't claim anything because we are not responsible for developing it. Let me repeat this again for absolute clarity: We literally cannot ourselves do anything about it. I don't know what you want me to say to that beyond what I just have.

Just to reiterate, because what we're working on is not a 'solution' to these issues either, it is -possibly- such a thing... we cannot take responsibility, basically, for things that we have no control over. For instance, BlackBerry doesn't do certain things that Daylite does. We can't do anything about that. It has nothing to do with passing the buck or blame. It's simply stating, with honesty, what we can and can't do.

That's why I recommend contacting RIM, Apple, and PocketMac. In -that- is where you will find solutions to this particular problem. That is the best advice I have. Our current work is adopt greater syncing standards, and if other developers do too, especially RIM, then we'll be in better shape.

Also, naturally we are going to be rethinking our marketing of this feature. We don't talk about it a lot, but it was printed on our box and unfortunately things have changed. Then again, that is not uncommon either. I'm sorry that you were mislead. I'm not sure what I can do for you now, but if there is something, please let me know.

Sorry to continue to bring vague news

I also have done some more investigation and discovered, indeed, that PocketMac has been trying to make fixes but are dependent on RIM, who is holding up the fixes in their QA process.

So again, I highly recommend pressuring the manufacturer of the OTHER key product in question—your BlackBerry portable—to get them to do their part. We have been wokring with PocketMac but everyone's hands are tied right now.

A great parallel is if Apple gives us an OS with a serious bug in it, we are at their mercy. It is not a matter of passing the buck...

Adam,
I promised to shut up not long ago, but after Michell's eloquent posts, I have to leave a couple comments.

I commend you for at least making some sort of reply. It still isn't satisfactory, but at least you are communicating. You certainly can't say as much for Pocketmac. Good luck getting them to reply to anything.

Apple and RIM? Reply to our requests? Give me a break. We're nits circling flies rounding the rump of a very large elephant.

It has seemed to me that we didn't hear about sync services being the missing link until it became very obvious to all of us that Pocketmac is an abject failure as a product and company. Am I mistaken about the timing? I'm sure you'll correct me.

I no longer find Blackberry syncing listed as a feature on your web site. Under features it only lists Palm under PDA synchronization. That's a good thing and perhaps a step in the right direction. I take it as an admission that what Mitchell, myself, and others are saying is correct.

I look forward to sync services and a purchase of a Missing Sync cross grade to their Blackberry product. At least Mark/Space has had the good sense to list Daylite sync as coming soon. That is, as soon as Daylite has sync services.

Thanks,
Mark

Jdoom,

We can't really advise what will and will not definitely sync with Blackberry. That has a lot to do with RIM, with PocketMac and Mark/Space, etc. However, we have general confidence in what these developers do, becuase they, like us, want to provide a good user experience.

When Sync Services is implemented for Daylite, it will mean that Daylite data will be more readily available to other Sync Services-aware applications. Everything from iCal to Missing Sync to Entourage.

HTH,

Hi Adam,
Looks like PocketMac is putting things back in your lap. Here's the response I got from their tech, Steve. This after my previous email dated 12/1/06. BTW, we should all be grateful for the responsiveness of Marketcircle.

I'm anxiously waiting for sync services. I look forward to more great things from you all.
Thanks,
Mark

hi Mark,

It just means that development on syncing directly with Daylite has slowed down. Market Circle should be able to provide the best syncing solution (to Apple Address Book) and from there you can sync Apple Address Book with the BlackBerry.


Steve


On Apr 26, 2007, at 5:08 PM, Mark Sponsler wrote:

Hi Steve,
It's a bit of a surprise to hear from you. The last message you sent was on 12/1/06. I know that Daylite syncs directly with AddressBook. Does this mean you have given up on syncing with Daylite directly?
Thanks,
Mark


On Apr 26, 2007, at 4:44 PM, Stephen Zyszkiewicz wrote:

hi Mark,

Just wanted to let you know that Daylite now syncs directly with Apple Address Book:
http://www.marketcircle.com/daylite/

You can then sync Address Book to your BlackBerry.


We have a new version, 4.020:
http://www.discoverblackberry.com/discover/mac_solutions.jsp

Mitchell Burt has summarized the situation as well as it can be said.

Adam has responded well, certainly well enough, at this point. (having him cry in a tissue won;t help any further).

Let's please move on. In fact, how about a new thread titled "Syncing SOLUTIONS"?

Enough with the "STINKING obticles" already - good words, the truth has been spoken - what is next?

I need a SOLUTION, eh?

And for the record, why did PocketMac bother with an update (4.0.20), it didn't fix anything!

Thanks guys. It is nice having a place to go to learn what is happening.

quote:

Originally posted by adam:
We have a BlackBerry here at the office and can sync with it.

Hello I just bought a blackberry last week and I am having major problems syncing to Daylite.

Can you please post some step by step instuctions on how you sync your Blackberry at the office.

Thanks,
Oliver

Ollie,

as you may have surmised from this thread, there seems to be no easy solution and MC hasn't implemented sync services yet. We thought we'd have something up and running by the end of '06 and now almost 6 months later MC's sync services are still AWOL.

That said, there are some interim steps you can take that might sound a bit cumbersome, but do work - they do require the purchase of Mark/Space's Missing Sync software:

1) address book sync: Sync your contacts with the Mac's address book and set the Missing Sync to do the same with the BB. This works rather well.

2) calendar sync: not available - all you can do is export Daylite's calendar to iCal and sync it with the BB. Forget about syncing back to DL though.

3) Notes, To Do's etc. : sometimes work, sometimes don't. Mark/Space has a neat little app though that will let you have notes on your Mac and on the BB, so you can at least have those synced. Forget about Daylite sync though...

As you can see you're in purgatory regarding syncing data. I do have to say though, that the address book sync works well at present. Also, do yourself a favor and don't use Pocketmac. That software is so flawed that it is a complete waste of time...

Cheers

C

Could not agree more... pure purgatory.
With Treo 600, 700, blackberries. Had them all.
All were problematic to say the least with DL Sync.

I now have a BB 8800 with PocketMac.
Syncs PERFECTLY with ical and Addressbook.
Problem is we all use Daylite!

Over a year now and we still dont have a real solution from Daylite.

the workarounds are useless. I don't have time to 'remember' to 1. export my ical, 2. sync my addresses 3. pocketmac sync.
and then stuck with manually adding BACK to DL the entries I did on my Blackberry.
Come on guys!

Time to look at something else.
I have, as all of you, stood by like a good soldier praising to everyone the benefits of DL. But this problem is, in my view of the "Mobile Workforce" , a major productivity killer.

Sorry to rant, it's been too long that i have been waiting for this.

I'm even considering switching to ATT and get an iPhone... but looking at DL track record on sync, who knows when well see a true sync for that too.
LC

LC

Sync services for DL is very, very close, so—last few bugs ironed out—MC are probably only days/weeks away from a native DL sync solution. Right now it’s in closed beta, but some of the community are already using it.

If you can I'd suggest you hold fire for just a little longer, to see if the forthcoming release solves your issues.

See Daylite 3.5 with Sync Services for details.